Serious Full Body v Split discussion

**Matrixre** · 03-01-2009, 02:33 PM

I know people tend to advocate that full body is the best way to go. But imo You cannot train each muslce group as hard when you employ a full body routine. Full body as a begginer is ok, but after splits is better.

Of course if training for sports/ Strength things are different. But for a bodybuilder splits are better with a higher rep range 8-12 once you can squat at least 1-1.5 x body weight for reps.

There are plenty of people that swear by building a base (dead/squat 400 and bench 300) but there are plenty of bodybuilders who dont lift remotley close to as much as powerlifters but yet have packed on slabs of muscle. What you guys have to remeber is most people just want decent looking muslces like actors for example. And for that you do not need to be lifiting Massive numbers.

Your thoughts.

**TAWS6** · 03-01-2009, 04:10 PM

For an advanced bb splits will always be better imo because they allow you to target each and every muscle group, unlike a full body beginners routine. I have done both and have gotten much better results from splits.

**arkansawboy** · 03-01-2009, 04:16 PM

In highschool i never really did a split workout for football, just three days a week of bench, clean, squat, and some random dumbbell exercises with traditional football conditioning, but still managed to gain strength and weight pretty well. However, when I started doing a bb split after i finished highschool, my bf cut tremendously, gained vascularity, and more size and strength.

splits all the way.

**TAWS6** · 03-01-2009, 04:21 PM

waiting for someone to argue full body...

**Matrixre** · 03-01-2009, 04:34 PM

Im not saying full body doesnt have its place in cycles, for strength etc but All im saying is if you want to be a BB and want max muscle, with little body fat splits by far is better imo. Once a begginer can squat 1-1.5 x bodyweight splits is just as good for building muscle if not better than full body. Less taxing on CNS, better recovery.

This doesnt mean stick in a ton of isolation you still focus on big basic movements.

For example if you bench heavy it becomes so much more diffult to squat heavy as well as your back is already fatigued from a hard set of bench press. Where as if they where on different days you could put max effort into the squat.

**Matrixre** · 03-01-2009, 04:42 PM

As an example I dont know why loads of people laugh at jay cutlers begginers routine (By begginer I mean someone thats been training proper less than a year).

Day 1

Working Sets
(sets x reps)
Barbell Bench Press 3 x 8-10
Incline Barbell Bench Press* 3 x 8-10
Flat Bench Dumbbell Flyes 3 x 8-10
Close-Grip Bench Presses 3 x 8-10
Lying Cambered Bar Extensions 3 x 8-10
Straight Bar Cable Pushdowns 3 x 8-10

* Every other workout, alternate Incline Barbell Bench Presses with Incline Dumbbell Presses.

Day 2*
Working Sets
(sets x reps)
Pulldowns or Wide-Grip Pull-Ups 3 x 8-10
Low Cable Rows
3 x 8-10
Dumbbell Rows or Bent-Over Barbell Rows
3 x 8-10
Standing Barbell Curls 3 x 8-10
Alternating Dumbbell Curls** 3 x 8-10

* Since Low Cable Rows, Dubbell Rows and Bent-Over Barbell Rows work a lot of the biceps, you don't need a lot of additional biceps work. In fact, doing too many sets for biceps after a good back workout could case your biceps to become overworked, which will prevent them from growing.

** Dumbbell Curls can be done either standing or seated. Alternate from week to week between the two.

Day 3
Working Sets
(sets x reps)
Leg Extensions 3 x 8-10
Squats 4 x 8-10
Stiff-Legged Dead Lifts or Lying Leg Curls 3 x 8-10

Day 4
Working Sets
(sets x reps)
Seated Dumbbell Overhead Presses or Barbell Military Presses 3 x 8-10
Seated Dumbbell Lateral Raises 3 x 8-10
Bent-Over Rear Lateral Raises or Reverse Pec-Deck Lateral Raises 3 x 8-10
Barbell Shrugs 3 x 8-10
Seated Calf Raises 3 x 8-12
Standing Calf Raises 3 x 8-12
Ab crunches on a bench 3 x 12-15
Hanging Leg Raises (knees bent) 3 x 12-15

What exactly is wrong with that someone explain. I mean you dont have to do some of the execrises like calf raise/ leg extension etc. after 4th day you take a day off. And start cycle again If you cant recover or go stale switch execricse/ take 2 days off between cycles etc. Whats the problem here ?

**Cpl. Brady** · 03-01-2009, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by TAWS6

waiting for someone to argue full body...

Full Body lifting is better for certain athletic applications such as fighting.

I personally like hybrid training.......3 day on 1 off 1 on 1 off repeat.
Example:
Day 1- Chest/Bi/Tri (strength)
Day 2- Legs/Core/Calves(strength)
Day 3- Back/Shoulders/Traps(strength)
Day 4- Off
Day 5- Full Body (power/conditioning)
Day 6- Off
Day 7- Start All Over

**IGF-WON** · 03-01-2009, 06:19 PM

id think bbing=full body at first just to get some strength, then splits
and sports=full body always (i guess going upper/lower or push/pull would work too)

**Matrixre** · 03-01-2009, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by IGF-WON

id think bbing=full body at first just to get some strength, then splits
and sports=full body always (i guess going upper/lower or push/pull would work too)

I guess that 'some' strength is where the argument lies.

Do you really need to be able to squat/dead 400 and bench 300 before thinkng about hypertrophy.

Think about it for a second. Imagine squatting 250 for 15-20 reps. Resting one minute. And repeating again for 2 more sets. Comapre that to doing 3 x 5 at 400 pounds.

Are you telling me the latter would be any more bigger than the former ?

**TAWS6** · 03-01-2009, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cpl. Brady

Full Body lifting is better for certain athletic applications such as fighting.

I personally like hybrid training.......3 day on 1 off 1 on 1 off repeat.
Example:
Day 1- Chest/Bi/Tri (strength)
Day 2- Legs/Core/Calves(strength)
Day 3- Back/Shoulders/Traps(strength)
Day 4- Off
Day 5- Full Body (power/conditioning)
Day 6- Off
Day 7- Start All Over

Well yeah but I dont think its better for advanced bbers

**ThickAsABrick** · 03-01-2009, 06:46 PM

This thread had great discussion about this topic: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...s+using+splits

Read the whole thing.

**NoFear27** · 03-01-2009, 07:00 PM

I think as a beginner a FB routine would work because your not lifting extreme amounts of weight yet so for beginners sure but once you get a good amount of strength then you can start the spilts so I think all in all FB has its time and place.

**Matrixre** · 03-01-2009, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick

This thread had great discussion about this topic: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...s+using+splits

Read the whole thing.

thx for that good discussion.

**BBDF** · 03-01-2009, 08:04 PM

Push/Pull and Layne Norton Style splits setup like this have worked the best for me.

Layne Style:
Day1-Heavy/Low rep Upper body
Day2-Heavy/Low rep LowerBody
Day3-off
Day4-Med/Higher rep Chest/Back
Day5-Med/Higher rep Legs
Day6-Med/Higher rep Shoulders/Arms
Day7-off

Push/Pull
Day1-Heavy/low rep Pull
Day2-Med/High rep Push
Day3-off
Day4-Med/High rep Pull
Day5-Heavy/low rep Push
Day6-off
Day7-Repeat

**Matrixre** · 03-02-2009, 04:23 AM

bump.

**clay123** · 03-02-2009, 04:39 AM

Your question is loaded. For BBing, obviously, once some sort of strength & experience has been gained, splits are more conducive to getter the HYOOGE muscles with the bicept p33k and 12 pack.

For pure strength and functionality in regards to athletic performance, a full body routine is the better option. However, once you're approaching elite levels in strength, splits are perhaps necessary too. Look at the likes of WSB & MM and even strongman routines.

But then look at the most powerful, dynamic and athletic lifters in the world, Olympic lifters. They essentially do full body workouts 6 days a week so who is anyone to argue with them.

If your objective is purely aesthetics and you have some foundation to work from, then splits are more than likely the better option.

**Kelei** · 03-02-2009, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by clay123

Your question is loaded. For BBing, obviously, once some sort of strength & experience has been gained, splits are more conducive to getter the HYOOGE muscles with the bicept p33k and 12 pack.

For pure strength and functionality in regards to athletic performance, a full body routine is the better option. However, once you're approaching elite levels in strength, splits are perhaps necessary too. Look at the likes of WSB & MM and even strongman routines.

But then look at the most powerful, dynamic and athletic lifters in the world, Olympic lifters. They essentially do full body workouts 6 days a week so who is anyone to argue with them.

If your objective is purely aesthetics and you have some foundation to work from, then splits are more than likely the better option.

In my opinion it's the average weekly stimulas that matters, whether you train with 12 sets once per week, 6 sets twice per week, 4 sets 3 times per week or 3 sets 4 times per week there will be similar results, either way it's 12 sets per week you are exposing your body to.

Splits should be tailored around your schedule and/or preference, all splits produce results if you are consistant.

**Matrixre** · 03-02-2009, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kelei

In my opinion it's the average weekly stimulas that matters, whether you train with 12 sets once per week, 6 sets twice per week, 4 sets 3 times per week or 3 sets 4 times per week there will be similar results, either way it's 12 sets per week you are exposing your body to.

Splits should be tailored around your schedule and/or preference, all splits produce results if you are consistant.

I suppose even doing splits for strength is not that bad. As you get to conecntrate on one big excerixe per day. i.e Squat one day. Bench another. Deadlift another. Stick in a few excercises to fill out weak links. And you have a solid programme.

**Kelei** · 03-02-2009, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Matrixre

I suppose even doing splits for strength is not that bad. As you get to conecntrate on one big excerixe per day. i.e Squat one day. Bench another. Deadlift another. Stick in a few excercises to fill out weak links. And you have a solid programme.

It can work yes, you could bench press 7 days per week with 2 sets per day or you could bench press once per week but you'd have to perform 14 sets to see similar results. The fact that there are successful lifters who train anywhere from once per week to 10 times per week suggests that the split you choose is not the most important variable, the most important thing is the average weekly stimulas you apply. Remember.........the body adapts to averages, not ups and downs.

**brighamw** · 03-02-2009, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Matrixre

I know people tend to advocate that full body is the best way to go. But imo You cannot train each muslce group as hard when you employ a full body routine. Full body as a begginer is ok, but after splits is better.

Of course if training for sports/ Strength things are different. But for a bodybuilder splits are better with a higher rep range 8-12 once you can squat at least 1-1.5 x body weight for reps.

There are plenty of people that swear by building a base (dead/squat 400 and bench 300) but there are plenty of bodybuilders who dont lift remotley close to as much as powerlifters but yet have packed on slabs of muscle. What you guys have to remeber is most people just want decent looking muslces like actors for example. And for that you do not need to be lifiting Massive numbers.

Your thoughts.

You are correct, splits are better for advanced bodybuilders. I do use a full body workout a couple times a year just to break things up though...You can't hit specific muscles enough in a 3xweek full body split (which is the normal full body split), unless you are doing specific sports training I would go with splits that can focus more individually on each body part...

**Al Swearengen** · 03-02-2009, 07:41 AM

anyone that advocates one way being "better" than the other in these threads has no idea what they are talking about and we see it week after week after week. about the only thing they are good for is pointing out people who have no clue when it comes to bodybuilding.

don't take it the wrong way i'm not putting you down just showing how many people get caught up in the senseless one over the other facets of training techniques and fail to realize they all have valid applications for anyone and everyone at some point in their training career. one is not better than the other for any reason they are just two roads to the same location.

**EPMD** · 03-02-2009, 07:54 AM

I'm not sure anyone should bother doing three or four different chest exercises when they can barely bench their bodyweight. Same goes for squats. Do you need to do leg press and leg extensions if your squats are still in the 200's? Probably not. There will come a time when a bodybuilding-focused person will move to a split to sculpt the strength they have built, but I think the average gym-goer can save a lot of time and wasted effort by focusing on one big move per body part until that time comes.

**Uk Lifter** · 03-02-2009, 08:09 AM

I agree with the guys saying neither is 'better' it's all about the application of the lifts etc. I personally have best results from fullbody workouts utilising heavy weight on compounds movements for multiple sets and some basic isolation exercises to assist in strengthening the bigger lifts and some added hypertrophy.

You have to get the idea that either is superior than the other out of your head, i use a gym that is frequented by both powerlifters and bodybuilders, the closest i've seen any of the bodybuilders train with a split is upper/lower or push/pulls and they are big guys that compete.

In the old days of bodybuilding fullbody routines were the standard and it worked then and still works now it just depends on a variety of factors on which suits you. Although i will say i don't think bodypart splits are optimal for beginner bodybuilders, strength trainees or athletes. But once you get to a stage where you instinctively know how your body responds to volume and different stimulus splits can be a valuable training method but in no means neccesary nor superior to other methods.

**Al Swearengen** · 03-02-2009, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by EPMD

I'm not sure anyone should bother doing three or four different chest exercises when they can barely bench their bodyweight. Same goes for squats. Do you need to do leg press and leg extensions if your squats are still in the 200's? Probably not. There will come a time when a bodybuilding-focused person will move to a split to sculpt the strength they have built, but I think the average gym-goer can save a lot of time and wasted effort by focusing on one big move per body part until that time comes.

would you consider progressing every week on 3 or 4 different chest exercises a waste of time, or progressing every week on leg press, extensions and squats a waste of time?

the key is continued progression on any number of routines you may choose that work for you, that's the real deal and anyone that try's to sell you otherwise is an idiot in the gym.

**TAWS6** · 03-02-2009, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Al Swearengen

anyone that advocates one way being "better" than the other in these threads has no idea what they are talking about and we see it week after week after week. about the only thing they are good for is pointing out people who have no clue when it comes to bodybuilding.

don't take it the wrong way i'm not putting you down just showing how many people get caught up in the senseless one over the other facets of training techniques and fail to realize they all have valid applications for anyone and everyone at some point in their training career. one is not better than the other for any reason they are just two roads to the same location.

Full body routines have never really worked for me. So in my experience my body response better to splits. For a beginner a full body would probably work better. I just dont see how a full body routine could help an advanced bb who must target his muscles more. A bb who has been on a split for some time would probably see results by switching to a full body because it would be a shock to his muscles but I think his body would adapt very quickly and he would need to switch back to a split eventually. Do you see my point?

**Al Swearengen** · 03-02-2009, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by TAWS6

Full body routines have never really worked for me. So in my experience my body response better to splits.

that's fine i did mention whatever works for YOU, whatever YOU can keep progressing on is key of course you cannot speak for everyone.

For a beginner a full body would probably work better. I just dont see how a full body routine could help an advanced bb who must target his muscles more.

that's about as baseless as making something up out of thin air.

A bb who has been on a split for some time would probably see results by switching to a full body because it would be a shock to his muscles but I think his body would adapt very quickly and he would need to switch back to a split eventually.

there are an enormous amount of ways in which to vary frequency, volume and intensity in order to tailor any full body or split routine to any level of trainee from novice through elite.

Do you see my point?

i do not see it no.

**Uk Lifter** · 03-02-2009, 09:47 AM

It depends what you mean by advanced bodybuilder, if you are speaking about the oiled up steroid freaks that are truly at the pinnacle of the sport then you are more than likely correct that they would need to focus on more specific work to keep at their level.

As for being a bodybuilder as a 'hobby' and being advanced you can still make gains, i wouldn't strictly call myself a bodybuilder as i'm not all that interested in being 'ripped' or whatever it's called these days, but i'm a pretty big strong guy and use fullbody or push/pull training the vast majority of the time.

Something i have found very useful when using fullbody is AM and PM sessions, this allows you to perform the heavy work in the AM and more tension work in the evening.

For example:

Monday-AM:

5x3 Squats
4x4 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
3x5 BB Row

PM:

3x8 BB Curls
3x10 CGBP
3x15 Side Raises
3x12 Lat Pulldowns

This is just a very rough idea of the way it can be set up, i myself have had very good results with this type of training 3 times a week utilising different exercises and set/rep schemes on different days but the main emphasis being on heavy strength work first in the day then supplemental work in the evening.

Bodypart splits may be neccesary if you require a larger amount of volume to grow but i personally continue to see great gains in both strength and size from fullbody routines, as long as the intensity and moderate amount of volume is present with both a focus on progression and diet then i don't see how it can't work, unless like i say your body responds better to higher volume per muscle group.

**TAWS6** · 03-02-2009, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Al Swearengen

that's fine i did mention whatever works for YOU, whatever YOU can keep progressing on is key of course you cannot speak for everyone.

that's about as baseless as making something up out of thin air.

there are an enormous amount of ways in which to vary frequency, volume and intensity in order to tailor any full body or split routine to any level of trainee from novice through elite.

i do not see it no.

Did you want me to explain why I think a full body would be better for a begginer? Where did I lose you? All I am saying is I think more advanced lifters need to use splits more than full bodies. Of course they can encorperate both but I have always found that I peak out really quick on full body routines.

**Orlando1234977** · 03-02-2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Al Swearengen

anyone that advocates one way being "better" than the other in these threads has no idea what they are talking about and we see it week after week after week. about the only thing they are good for is pointing out people who have no clue when it comes to bodybuilding.

don't take it the wrong way i'm not putting you down just showing how many people get caught up in the senseless one over the other facets of training techniques and fail to realize they all have valid applications for anyone and everyone at some point in their training career. one is not better than the other for any reason they are just two roads to the same location.

Agreed completely. I continue to use both full body as well as BP Splits. Both have obvious advantages and disadvantages. Luckily I'm able to do both during different periods of time. People will see me arguing for both, depending on which group is being more dogmatic.

In general,
-The closer you are to beginner status, the more you'll see optimal progress using less volume per bodypart and more frequency (so a full body or upper lower works great)
-The more advanced you get, the more volume you may need per bp for size gains and less frequency (so BP splits become advantageous)
-The more your goals include strength or training for sports, the less volume you'll need per BP and frequency becomes important for neural gains.
-I'm in the intermediate range and size gains are significantly superior with BP splits, but still a bit inferior in driving strength gains in the basic lifts. (So I train about 75% BP, 25% full body or upper/lower.

The vast majority of accomplished lifters have this figured out (training based on goal and level of experience), anecdotal evidence is easy to witness or source.

**Matrixre** · 03-02-2009, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Orlando1234977

Agreed completely. I continue to use both full body as well as BP Splits. Both have obvious advantages and disadvantages. Luckily I'm able to do both during different periods of time. People will see me arguing for both, depending on which group is being more dogmatic.

In general,
-The closer you are to beginner status, the more you'll see optimal progress using less volume per bodypart and more frequency (so a full body or upper lower works great)
-The more advanced you get, the more volume you may need per bp for size gains and less frequency (so BP splits become advantageous)
-The more your goals include strength or training for sports, the less volume you'll need per BP and frequency becomes important for neural gains.
-I'm in the intermediate range and size gains are significantly superior with BP splits, but still a bit inferior in driving strength gains in the basic lifts. (So I train about 75% BP, 25% full body or upper/lower.

The vast majority of accomplished lifters have this figured out (training based on goal and level of experience), anecdotal evidence is easy to witness or source.

Well to me upper lower is prety much a split anyway.

All I am saying is this it becomes more and more difficult to first bench 3 x 5, then squat 3 x 5, and then deadlift 3 x 5 all in one session. Yes it probably releases a lot of growth hormone but then it taxex CNS a lot. Whereas with either upper/lower or one big excerices per day or body part splits you can fully concentrate one one specfic area. Less prone to injury as well, better form etc.

What is more its not as if you are not doing the big compounds anymore giving you little functional abilty. You are still squatting/ benching etc.

Full body does have its place i.e. for quick strength increaes, coming back from injury etc. But my argument lies with those that swear by building a big base i.e squatting/deadlift 400 and benching 300. What people must realise is that people just want decent physiques not neccersarily looking like arnold. Physiques like Bradd pitt in fight club, Ryan reynolds in blade etc.

Thread: Serious Full Body v Split discussion

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Serious Full Body v Split discussion

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions